Punjab Heritage

Increase font size  Decrease font size  Default font size 
Sikhs in Scotland
Welcome, Guest
Please Login or Register.    Lost Password?
Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? (1 viewing) (1) Guest
Go to bottom Post Reply Favoured: 0
TOPIC: Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion?
#16
balraj (User)
Administrator
Posts: 4
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Gender: Male Location: Glasgow
Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
There is some debate going on about whether Sikhism should be under the ethnic group or religious group for the 2011 census. A test census which was released in 2006 gave rise to some real confusion when the Scottish Government decided to put Sikhism under both sections and see what people would choose. We plan to send the opinions and responses raised within this forum to the main political parties in Scotland.

This decision of where to have Sikhs on the census will have a big affect on our rights in Scotland.

David Whitton MSP has written to around 700 Sikhs in his constituency, Strathkelvin and Bearsden. To view the letter see below.

David Whitton MSP Letter

2001 Census - 2006 Test Census

Recommendation Census 2011


Do you feel that Sikhism should be classed as an ethnic group or a religion for the purposes of the 2011 census?
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2008/09/11 14:43 By balraj.
 
Balraj Singh
Administrator
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#20
ilu06254 (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 1
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
In my opinion, Sikhism is a religion and should be placed under the religion section and not under the ethinic group. The majority of Sikhs are Indian which is what our ethnicity is.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#21
anoop (Admin)
Admin
Posts: 5
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
Can someone please explain the fundamental difference between ethnicity and religion?
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#22
amritpal singh (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 6
graph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
I think questions need to be asked of the Scottish Parliament....

- Why did they include Sikh as an ethnic group in the previous form?
- What is the criteria for the census groups?
- What constitutes an ethnic group and what constitutes a religion?

Also as Sikhs we need to be a bit clearer ourselves. I don't think we have a unified opinion and thats based on our own lack of understanding our of own belief principles. Me included.

Sikhism could be termed as just another religion if it's looked upon in that sense.....Or, it could bee seen as something much greater. Then again, I'm sure every religion has that image of themselves as being bigger than being just another religion.

- What would we lose/gain if Sikh was placed in the religion/ethnicity group in the census?

Could we have this explained to us by the Scottish Parliament?

I think added confusion is because other religious groups have been placed in the ethnicity section. Maybe thats why we feel we'd miss out on something or we'd be left behind if we're not included in certain sections.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#26
sukhvir (Moderator)
Moderator
Posts: 4
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
Just to give my 2 pence worth, the following is from Wikipedia:

An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of preferential endogamy and/or a presumed or real common ancestry. Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits, real or presumed, as indicators of contrast to other groups.

Ethnicity and race are related concepts in that both are usually defined in terms of shared genealogy. Often, ethnicity also connotes shared cultural, linguistic, behavioural or religious traits. For example, to call oneself Jewish or Arab one immediately invokes a clutch of linguistic, religious, cultural and racial features that are held to be common within each ethnic category. Such broad ethnic categories have also been termed macroethnicity to distinguish them from smaller more subjective ethnic features, often termed microethnicity. Race, by contrast, refers to "some concentrations, as relative to frequency and distribution, of hereditary particles (genes) and physical characters, which appear, fluctuate, and often disappear in the course of time by reason of geographic and or cultural isolation." In 1950, the UNESCO statement The Race Question, signed by some of the internationally renowned scholars of the time (including Ashley Montagu, Claude Lévi-Strauss, Gunnar Myrdal, Julian Huxley, etc.), suggested that: "National, religious, geographic, linguistic and cultural groups do not necessarily coincide with racial groups: and the cultural traits of such groups have no demonstrated genetic connection with racial traits. Because serious errors of this kind are habitually committed when the term 'race' is used in popular parlance, it would be better when speaking of human races to drop the term 'race' altogether and speak of 'ethnic groups'.


You can read more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#28
T8BLA (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 1
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
Still waiting on more info coming through but so far this is what I have found:-

What is the Census ?

The census provides essential statistics for the allocation of public services and better planning on matters such as community relations, health care, education, employment and housing. Basically the census is a tool for departments of local and central government to help the allocation of public resources and the execution of government policy.

Religion and the Census

Without census data on religion, the government cannot readily demonstrate its compliance with the law under sub-sections of Section 11 of the Education Reform Act 1988 (amended 1993) or Part III of the Children Act 1989. In addition, references to religion are made in the NHS and Community Care Act 1990 and the Criminal Justice Act 1991. Local Authorities require data on religious affiliation to assess whether they are fulfilling their duties under the Race Relations Act 1976. Census data on religion could also be crucial to the developments in future legislation, particularly in the light of current Home Office research into the nature and extent of religious discrimination and Article 13 of the Amsterdam Treaty enabling European Union institutions to bring forward proposals relating to legislation against racism, xenophobia and religious discrimination.


A question, Do you think by putting 'Sikh' in the ethnic category would sacrifice our right to wear a kirpan in public ? The reason I ask is because the above text mentions Article 13 of the Amsterdam Treaty which is one of the legislation which permits Sikhs to wear the kirpan as an 'article of faith'
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#29
preetcharan (User)
Moderator
Posts: 1
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
I'm sure you all saw the news a while back about that girl who had to fight her way through court so she could wear her Kara at school.

The courts realised that the Kara isn't an option for us to wear. It's a requirement and a part of our faith. Some people aren't allowed to wear the Christian cross around their necks, the star of david, burkhas, and other items relates to other religions because they're linked with tradition and heritage rather than being religious requirement.

Using that story, if we start calling ourselves an ethnic group, then where does the Kirpan issue stand? Maybe from this, it's quite clear that we should be put in the religious group.

Maybe getting some lawyers involved on this forum would help us to understand how our rights would change depending on what we call ourselves.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#30
Harjit Singh (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 3
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA !
VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !

Sadh Sangat Jio,
The below articles my shed some light on why Sikh should be classed under the Ethnic question and not the religion question.

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ke Fateh


Kashmiris are now being monitored also as an ethnic group in Leeds. This will help them to get their fair share of jobs, promotions, grants, delivery of services by public and private sector organisations. They are also being monitored in other places such as Birmingham.


The question arises why do they not monitor Sikhs as an ethnic group, so that we can get our fair share? Why should we continue to suffer racial discrimination, since Sikhs are both a Qaum (Nation) as well as being a religion.


All the other political parties agree that Sikhs should be monitored as an ethnic group in Census 2011, except the Labour Party. In the forthcoming local and general elections, Sikhs should vote for those that will give us fair treatment and stop racial discrimination against us. About 80% of Sikhs have been born in the UK or have grown up here. In the past Sikhs have been a vote bank for the Labour Party, and as such were ignored. It is time for us to stop being ignored. Exercise your vote effectively and tactically to get fair ttreatment for Sikhs. Kick out those that have failed to support on Sikh issues. It is time for a major change as done by our Gurus.


Kashmir Singh LL.B, LL.M, C.Eng, Project Management NVQ; former member of statutory OFWAT water industry customer services committee for England and Wales, IEE Council

07721-507055
General Secretary, British Sikh Federation, PO Box 242, Wolverhampton, WV4 5DH, England, UK

Visit the BSF website at www.british-sikh-federation.org to see details of previous successful campaigns to safeguard Sikh Rights over many years, e.g. work as bus drivers and conductors wearing turbans (1969), wear turbans on construction sites (1989), overwhelming support in the European Parliament on an Urgency Resolution for a Sikh newspaper editor's release from prison against the then UK Government (1996), defence for Sikh school children to wear Kirpan (1996), right for Sikh workers at UK airports to wear Kirpan (2002), opening British Embassy offices in Panjab and GujaraBritish Sikh Federation



Racism against Sikhs and Punjabis





Sikh Ethnic Group Monitoring category

Research reports from the Government Cabinet Office, Home Office, and Commission for Racial Equality, etc all show that the British Sikh Community suffer more racial discrimination than Indian and other ethnic groups, for example higher levels of unemployment, less well paid, and less well represented in higher job grades.



A fair share for Sikhs of the total British economy would be £10,000 million per year, based on the GDP figures for year 2000. There is overwhelming support for Sikh ethnic group monitoring category by the British Sikh Community, as shown by the signed Petitions presented to the Commission for Racial Equality and to the Prime Minister. Government Home Office Ministers Charles Clarke MP, Hilary Benn MP, Lord Geoffrey Filkin, senior politicians from all political parties, etc have publicly stated that they expect Sikh ethnic group monitoring to be carried out.



The Scottish authorities have created a Sikh ethnic group tick box for Census 2011; other leading bodies have now done so as well. This will allow the full levels of racism to be clearly seen, so that targets and action plans can then be put in place to give Sikhs fairer treatment.



However, the Government Office for National Statistics (ONS) has not yet provided a Sikh ethnic group tick box for Census 2011, and they set the lead for other national public and private sector organisations; the ONS has done so for other new ethnic groups, and groups that have been in existence for a smaller period than Sikhs, e.g. Pakistani (since 1947, and Muslim religion only), Bangladeshi (since 1971, and Muslim religion only), Arab, Gypsy, etc. The 1991 Census showed that 395 Chinese, 187 Bangladeshi, 2,074 Pakistani, 319 Black African were counted in Wolverhampton, but 20,000 Sikhs in Wolverhampton were not counted or the 40,000 Sikhs in Birmingham.



Sikh ethnic group monitoring tick box is supported by many British Sikh organisations (e.g. Shiromani Akali Dal UK, Sikh Community and Youth Services, Sikh Missionary Society (Regd) UK, Oxbridge Sikh Alumni Association, Sikhs in England, Gurdwaras (Sikh Temples) from Glasgow and Dundee in the North to London and Southampton in the South, SEWA UK, Akali Ekta Committee, Working Group on Sikhs and Education (WORKSE), Federation of Sikh Organisations, Council of Sikh Gurdwaras in Birmingham, Federation of Sikh Organisations in Leicester, British Sikh Council, Sports clubs, Sikh Study Forums, Sikh Nari Manch UK, British Sikh Consultative Forum, Akhand Kirtni Jatha, Legal Experts, Sikh Womens Alliance, etc.), Akal Takhat Jathedar has stated that Sikhs are a Qaum (Nation) as well as a religious group, UK political parties, Indian National Minorities Commission Chairman, even the Indian RSS has publicly admitted that Sikhs are a Qaum, etc.



· Please take steps so that the ONS stops it’s racism against the British Sikh Community and includes a Sikh tick box under the ethnic group category, as well as under the religion category. Employers and other organisations monitor racism and set targets using the ethnic group categories, not religious categories.



Punjabi Language

The Punjabi language is spoken by Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, and Christians with Punjabi backgrounds living in the UK, and is the second language in England and Scotland, after English, as shown by a number of independent reports by University researchers and Glasgow City Local Authority Council. Punjabi is the first language in Pakistan, and is the 13th language in the world with about 85 million speakers (see Multilingual Capital, ISBN 1 903292 00 X, Year 2000, Edited by Philip Baker & John Eversley).



The Scotland Census Test in April 2006 has provided a tick box for the Punjabi language, but the ONS for England and Wales has again failed to do so.

· Please take steps so that the ONS stops it’s racism against the Punjabi language, and provides a tick box for the Punjabi language. This will then ensure that public organisations spend millions of pounds on the Punjabi language, as done for other languages in the UK.



Punjab River Waters

Former Punjab Chief Minister Amarinder Singh publicly stated that the Punjab water level is falling by 3 ft each year; in some places it has been falling 6 ft each year, whilst water has now run out altogether in some places. British studies have shown that Punjab will become a desert by year 2030. Every year bore holes have to be drilled deeper and deeper to get water for drinking and farming. The states of Haryana and Rajasthan are becoming water-logged, and are spending vast amounts of money to drain away the water. Haryana could dam rivers in its area, and use water for irrigation, if required, but it has failed to do so. In the meantime, Punjab is being impoverished environmentally and economically.



The Punjab Termination of Agreements Act 2004 passed by the Punjab Legislative Assembly during the Congress Government of Amarinder Singh cancelling any previous Agreements over the use of water by other States was a welcome move, but it had a very weak section 5 which also allowed the unrestricted use of the water by other States, instead of placing a time limit of say 1 year, so that the other States could make alternative arrangements. This Act as it stood had no effect, and water continued to be used by other States during the last 3 years.



The Shiromani Akali Dal has formed the new Punjab Government and has stated that it will scrap section 5 of the Punjab Termination of Agreements Act, and this is a welcome step in the right direction. At this stage it is not known whether this will actually happen, and it is also likely that the Supreme Court will rule against Punjab when it reviews the legislation.



Previous Indian Union Governments have forced Punjab to give away it’s water, even when the Indian Union Government had no constitutional legal power to do so; various tricks have been used so that the Supreme Court has not given a decision for the last 20 years, despite court cases being brought against previous Indian Union Governments.



· Please take steps by bringing these details to the attention of Members of Parliament, Government Ministers, European Parliament, Parliamentary Environmental Committees in the UK / Europe / USA / Canada/ United Nations, etc so that the Punjab is prevented from being turned into a desert, which will cause some 20 million people to become refugees. It will also cause the water table to fall under Pakistan Punjab, outbreak of war between Pakistan and India, and loss of food production for the Indian people. Already there are restrictions on the export of food from India, due to shortages in food production. Only increased awareness and action abroad will help, since the situation has continued to become worse during the last 60 years. It is in the overall national interests of both Punjab and India


t (2003), Government commitment to set up Commission for Equalities and Human Rights (2004), etc.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#31
Harjit Singh (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 3
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA !
VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !

Some ideas on what we can do to state our case, which was sent to me via email from one of the MSPs I emailed. However, I really dont know how to pratically implement them.

In terms of the Scottish Parliament I think you could raise this issue with the Clerk to the Equal Opportunities Committee and ask for the Committee’s consideration of it. The Clerk is Terry Shevlin and you can find details of the Committee and an email address on the Scottish Parliament website. I am a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, but it is important that issues are presented by members of the public rather than members of the Committee – for the sake of impartiality.



Another parliamentary option would be to submit the issue to the Public Petitions Committee, who can ensure that matters that fall within the Parliament’s remit are addressed in one way or another. Details of how to draw up and submit a Public Petition are also on the Scottish Parliament website.



In both cases there is the usual problem of finding Parliamentary time for an issue, but I know that both Committees work hard to respond to requests for consideration of important issues.



Outwith Parliament I wonder if you have asked the Scottish office of the Equality and Human Rights Commission to consider your concerns? Their details are available at the following link: http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/scotland/pages/ehrcscotland.aspx



I hope these comments are helpful. I am happy to write in support of any representations you make, so let me know if that would be helpful.



Best wishes.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#34
anoop (Admin)
Admin
Posts: 5
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 2 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
Can I be devil's advocate?

If Sikhism is a religion why is there a national anthem?

If Sikhism is a ethnic group why do people convert?

Please help me decide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anoop
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#35
Harjit Singh (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 3
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 2 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA !
VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !

Some more articles regarding this issue.

1969: Sikh busmen win turban fight

Sikh busmen in Wolverhampton have won the right to wear turbans on duty after a long-running campaign.
Conductors and drivers who are practising Sikhs will also be allowed to have long beards - another requirement for strict adherents of their faith.
Wolverhampton's Transport Committee dropped its ban after the leader of a Sikh group, Sohan Singh Jolly, had threatened to burn himself to death in protest.

Mr Jolly, 66, said the ban on turbans and beards was a direct attack on his religion.

Fourteen others had vowed to follow suit and set fire to themselves if their request was not granted.

However, Mr Jolly's actions did not receive whole-hearted support from all of Britain's estimated 130,000 Sikhs.

Dr A K S Aujila of the Supreme Council of Sikhs in the UK said: "We are going to wage relentless war on the idea that individuals can take this sort of action involving the whole community and very likely lead to a worsening of community harmony in Britain".




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In the interests of race relations we have taken the decision to relax the rule"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ronald Gough, Wolverhampton Transport Committee

But both the Transport and General Workers Union and the Indian High Commission in London urged the Wolverhampton committee to change its rules.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Employment and Productivity, Ernest Fernyhough, also visited the city and warned councillors of "wide repercussions" if Mr Jolly carried out his threat.

After the committee's decision its chairman Ronald Gough said though the eight-man committee felt their ban on turbans had been "right and proper" none had vote against removing it.

"In the interests of race relations we have taken the decision to relax the rule," he said.

After the committee's change of heart Mr Jolly said he had been forced to make his threat:

"I am a moderate and religious man and would never have taken the extreme step of threatening my life if they had not refused to listen to reason," he said.


In Context
Most other English bus companies at the time already permitted Sikhs to wear turbans and beards.

After winning his fight in Wolverhampton Sohan Singh Jolly moved on to tackle Nottingham's bus bosses where turbans and beards were not allowed.

Strict Sikhs live by a code which requires them to wear the "Five Ks" at all times.

They are the Kirpan (sword or small dagger), Kesh (long hair), Kanga (comb), Kara (steel bangle) and Kasherra (breeches).

In 1982 Britain's highest court, the House of Lords, ruled that Sikhs were a distinct ethnic group and entitled to protection under the Race Relations Act.

This effectively gave them the right to wear beards and turbans in all walks of life


Baroness Anelay of St Johns asked Her Majesty's Government:


Whether they recognise Sikhs as a distinct ethnic group.



The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Filkin): My Lords, we do, in accordance with the Law Lords' judgment of 1983 in the case of Mandla v Dowell Lee, which established that Sikhs are an ethnic group for the purposes of the Race Relations Act. If memory serves me right, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, in his former life, appeared for the successful appellant.


Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware that the Sikh community in this country is so disappointed with the Government's general stance over the operation of the Race Relations Act that it is lobbying Parliament today to ask the Minister to reconsider current policy to catch up with the needs of today, and to accept that public authorities must monitor Sikhs separately for racial monitoring purposes? This is to ensure that the estimated 700,000 strong British Sikh community is given proper protection, especially following the events of September 11th, from discrimination in the operation of the Race Relations (Amendment) Act. Will the Government now consider issuing guidance so that all public authorities, not only some, are left in no doubt that they must take action on this matter?


Lord Filkin: My Lords, I was aware of the lobby and its views. I look forward to discussing this issue in more detail with representatives of the Sikh community when I meet with them at the end of this month. In short, the representations made did not persuade the Office for National Statistics, which consulted the CRE on this issue, that it was necessary to include Sikhs as a separate category in the 1991 or 2001 censuses. But, of course, Sikhs would have been able to put "Sikh" on the census form under the "other" category, if they so wished. They will also be identified as a religious group, which was included in the 2001 census for this purpose.


Lord Dholakia: My Lords, while accepting that the Mandla judgment identified Sikhs as a distinct ethnic

3 Jul 2002 : Column 222
group, it also created a number of anomalies in that other groups have been excluded from the definition. What do the Government have in mind to ensure that such groups, particularly those with religious beliefs, are included in future equality legislation?


Lord Filkin: My Lords, both in my role and more widely across Government we are well aware of the sensitivity of this issue and of the importance in a multiracial and multi-ethnic society of properly reflecting the diversity that exists. Therefore, I am certain that before the next census—if it proceeds in the form of previous censuses—there will be the most careful consultation on this issue. We shall also seek proper consultation on the other circumstances in which it will arise in the future.


Lord Avebury: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the advice being given by the CRE to public authorities on how they should conduct ethnic monitoring in connection with their obligations to produce statements of race equality, requests them to use the ethnic categories contained in the census? Therefore public authorities will not have particular regard to the special needs of the Sikhs, or indeed of any other minority community which is not named in the census. Does the Minister agree that the advice being given by the CRE should be revived to take into consideration the diversity of ethnic groups in our society?


Lord Filkin: My Lords, the code of practice gives the advice signalled by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—that is, that it is sensible to make it possible to compare local data with the census data. That is common sense because, without those comparisons, many other issues are difficult in policy terms. On the other hand, the code of practice also states that it is open for a local authority or police force to disaggregate, if they so wish, within a particular category to allow the finer grain detail in their monitoring that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, advances. The code of practice, therefore, permits exactly what the noble Lord proposes.


The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, there is a significant Sikh community in Huddersfield, which is in my diocese, and a large Muslim community. There is also a quite significant Christian Asian community. In terms of the Question, can the Minister define where he sees an "Asian Christian" community.


Lord Filkin: My Lords, shooting from the hip, I would have thought that a Christian Asian would have indicated "British Asian" under the question about ethnic origin in the census; and, under the question about religious affiliation, would have written "Christian".


The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, given the historic commitment of the Sikh people to this country, is it not time that we had a turban in this House?

3 Jul 2002 : Column 223


Lord Filkin: My Lords, that is an interesting and important question, which I am sure will be noted. I agree that Sikhs have made a great contribution to Britain. They are a proud race who fought the British in India and fought with the British in the last two wars. They have made many significant contributions to the social and economic life of this country


(this is parliamentary debate by House of Lords etc - very important in decision making generally)
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#36
sukhvir (Moderator)
Moderator
Posts: 4
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 2 Weeks ago Karma: 0  
Dear all,

A quote from Harjit's article:
Lord Filkin: My Lords, shooting from the hip, I would have thought that a Christian Asian would have indicated "British Asian" under the question about ethnic origin in the census; and, under the question about religious affiliation, would have written "Christian".

I would also have thought the same in that an Asian Sikh would have indicated "British Asian" under ethnic origin and under religious affiliation would have written "Sikh". Likewise, a White Sikh would have indicated "British White" under ethnic origin and under religious affiliation would have written "Sikh".

Surely the census is there to get a good picture of the different ethnic AND religious categories of people that make up Britain and a white Sikh and asian Sikh selecting Sikh under the ethnic category would mean both are classed as "British Sikh", instead of giving more accurate information such as white british Sikh and asian british Sikh (or chinese british Sikh for that matter). If Sikh was an ethnic group, the census would not give an accurate picture of the make-up of Britain.

To backup Anoop's question with regards to converting, people can convert to Sikhism, however you CANNOT convert your ethnic group - i.e. you cannot change your genetic make-up or colour from being Asian to White, or from being Black to White (unless you are Michael Jackson of course).

Also, Hinduism wasn't classed as an ethnic group in the 2006 census - why not and should they also not be included if Sikhs are to be included? If Hindus kick up a fuss and wish to be included, who else should be included? What about atheism, or buddhism, or Jainism, or Jehova's Witnesses, or Mormon, or Paganism, or Scientology, or Taoism, etc, etc? Which religion do you draw the line at? Surely the census should be a simple document to fill in and by adding more categories and confusing people, you will get less people filling them in.

Just my thoughts and feel free to respond
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2008/09/20 01:54 By sukhvir.
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#40
Jasmeet Singh (Admin)
Admin
Posts: 3
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months, 1 Week ago Karma: 0  
Reply to Anoops earlier post:

Can I be devil's advocate?

Looks like your already are.

If Sikhism is a religion why is there a national anthem?

The Shabad 'Deh Shiva Bar Mohe Ihe' is commonly referred to as the Sikh National Anthem. The Phenomena appeared on widely published posters and articles and caught on as a National Anthem. As far as I am aware it is not officially recognised as a "National Anthem" by any Sikh authority. I may be wrong on that so please correct me if I am wrong.

If Sikhism is a ethnic group why do people convert?

The question of conversion is one that I would like to hear a reply from the "Pro-Sikhs as an ethnic group" camp.

Please help me decide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In their support, we can refer to the Sikh Kingdom of Maharaja Runjeet Singh whose rule extended from much of Northern India, Lahore, Kashmir, Afghanistan etc. Majority of Sikhs can trace their origins from these lands once part of the Sikh Kingdom. Hence it can historically be justified that Sikhs were a ethnic group who in recent times have been consumed into wider "Indian culture", which was dramatically re-shaped before, during and after the British Raj. The problem in this is that we would be claiming to be an ethnic group using a state which hasnt existed for 150 years.

Thats a basic angle to both sides of the arguement. As the issue is basically one of definitions debate in inevitable. The majority of us aren't affiliated with any group or movement that for political motivations or determinations do not wish class themselves as British Asian - Indian. If this is the case it means a large number of people can swing to either side of the arguement. Facts and solid evidence on how our classification will impact the potential support our community can recieve.

It is well known that Sikhs on a whole felt betrayed by the events on 1984 and subsequent lack of rights for Sikhs and Punjabis are well documented and exist even today on a mass scale. This undoubtedly influences many peoples decision to not class themselves as Indian. Our primary focus for this issue should not be past events, but how the decision made will impact our future. Will being classed as an ethnic group it mean greater help for Sikhs in the UK? Or will it mean our religious symbols become ethnic items which will no longer be protected, i.e. right to wear kirpan. Intelligent research/discussion and well presented facts will be what determines my views on this debate, I (and I'mm sure many others) will side with whatever option offers greater benefit for the entire Sikh community. At the meeting yesterday it was established research into this is currently on going, I look forward to seeing their findings.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2008/09/30 11:08 By Jasmeet Singh.
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#43
anoop (Admin)
Admin
Posts: 5
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 3 Months ago Karma: 0  
TRANSCRIT OF E_MAIL FROM DR. SERJINDER SINGH:

Sat Sri Akal
I think most of us are confused about words ‘Ethnic Group’, ‘Religion’, ‘Nationality’ etc.
Of these, ‘religion’ is easy to ascribe to ourselves compared with ethnicity. Ethnicity is in relation to others who are presumed to be in other ‘Ethnic Groups’ different from ours. Ethnicity is a mercurial thing it depends who one is interacting with whereas religion is more personal and relates to one’s belief system. On the other hand identification with a nation/s or a country is altogether different being in the domain of political and geographical roots.
The current issue is what should we as ‘Sikhs’ do in Scotland. The issue arose from the need for accurate, appropriate, and useful data to be collected during the 2011 census in Scotland. This data is very important because it helps the users, particularly the government to decide policies regarding provision of services to the citizens. It also is very important resource for groups of citizens to claim their rights in the face of disadvantage and discrimination, particularly for ‘minority ethnic’ groups. It is in this context that we should try to understand that any decision on this issue should be to help the group of people in Scotland seen as ‘Sikhs’ to be able to best protect their rights and access to services.
The most appropriate solution to this issue would be to keep the three strands separate. Namely, what religion one practices; what nation/s one identifies with; and what ethnic group one considers to be part of.
Before proceeding further it is important to understand ethnic group.
An ethnic group is a group of people who have a shared sense of history, culture, geographical roots and may or may not be religion as well.
I myself, for example may consider myself as belonging to a ‘Sikh’ ethnic group because I share history with lots of others in terms of three centuries of political turmoil in the land known as Panjab and being a descendent of people known as Sikhs by others during this period. I take pride in Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s kingdom. I wear a turban and other cultural accessories that go with this group (in addition to the usual Sikh symbols).
For instance, the love for Punjabi music, Punjabi language, Bhangra dance, Punjabi food and so on. Even if I had no turban and no beard that a religious practicing sikh should have, still, I am certain, I shall be cremated with the recitation of Keertan Sohila and would have been married in a Gurdwara through Anand Kaarj ceremony following an Akhand Paath to which my friends and relatives would be invited.
A puritanical sikh might object that I am not a true Sikh hence not an ethnic Sikh but most persons and the society at large would identify it as a Sikh funeral, a Sikh wedding, and a Sikh lifestyle. And this is what is important in this case. This distinctive cultural aspect would be what others would ascribe my ethnicity to be Sikh ethnicity. On the other hand it is up to me personally to identify whether I am a ‘Sikh’ in the religious sense or not. I may be a Nihang, a follower of a Sant, or belonging to numerous other Sikh religious sects.

The solution to this issue is to have three simple questions in the census questionnaire:
1. What nation or nations do you identify with;
2. What is your ethnic group;
3. What is your religion?
The first question should have options to choose as many as one likes. Thus, I could choose, Scotland, Britain, and India as well as the nations to identify with. Those from East Africa for instance may opt for Kenya or Uganda along with whatever other affinities.
The second question should include ‘Sikh’ as one of the options to be ticked as the ethnic groups.
And the third question obviously should give realistically list of major religions practiced in Scotland.
Scottish Government had commissioned a ‘Cognitive Question Testing Scotland’s Census Ethnicity Classification’. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/03/13130536/1
It had the first two questions above. The first question above was question number 6 and question number 2 above as question 7 in the questionnaire with ‘Sikh’ as one of the options for ethnic group.
I feel it was a good step forward realising that there is a major ethnic group identifying themselves and recognised by others as ‘Sikh’ irrespective of whether they were practicing Sikhs or not and one of the top five groups in terms of numbers.
In the 2001 census the only relevant ethnic group to majority of Sikhs in Scotland was ‘Indian’. This led to erroneous data on Sikhs coming out. The number of Sikhs (resulting from the religion question) was just over 6000 because most simply mentioned that their ethnic group is ‘Indian’. Whereas, from my own interest in Ethnic Minorities in Scotland I know that in Greater Glasgow there were around 18,000 Ethnic Sikhs even in 1991. Thus, I strongly feel that the ethnic question should have ‘Sikh’ as one of the options to be ticked separate from the religious question where ‘Sikh’ should be the options as ususal. Failure to do so would mean under-recording of Sikhs in Scotland and result in inaccurate assessment of our needs in policy decisions for the coming decade.
Nationality, Ethnicity, and Religion should be kept separate in separate questions.
Serjinder Singh
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
#46
amritpal singh (User)
Fresh Boarder
Posts: 6
graph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Re:Sikhism - Ethnic group or religion? 1 Month, 1 Week ago Karma: 0  
After reading Dr Serjinder Singh's response I would be happy to have Sikh in both Religion and Ethnicity categories in the census if thats possible.

As Sikhs we do have a strong basis upon which to recognize ourselves as a distinct ethnic community.

I feel this issue about the census was somewhat sidelined at the recent MSP Question Time events. Maybe we should have brought it up earlier in the session so that we would have had more of a discussion on it. There was no view point put forward from any of the Sikhs attending. It would have eben good to ehar some view points as this would have somewhat reflected the views of the community infront of the MSPs present.

I thought the event itself was very successful.

I hopefully we'll see more Young Sikhs attending.
 
Report to moderator   Logged Logged  
  The administrator has disabled public write access.
<